tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2899018576420083198.post3893899176257854534..comments2023-08-12T00:51:02.219-07:00Comments on The Pilgrimgram: Pastors and Other ConsultantsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2899018576420083198.post-62391369642493129372007-05-31T07:35:00.000-07:002007-05-31T07:35:00.000-07:00Thanks for the response. I'll check out those folk...Thanks for the response. I'll check out those folks you mentioned. <BR/><BR/>I'm on board, by the way, with your main point. The question of the apostles was a quibble.<BR/><BR/>Hope the nectar's treating you well. I do believe I can feel God's blessing upon it (the coffee, that is), as it's giving me wakefulness. Ahh, the sweet, sweet nectar.<BR/><BR/>-TimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2899018576420083198.post-36662757207196436832007-05-30T18:57:00.000-07:002007-05-30T18:57:00.000-07:00I tend to define “apostles” by function, not by ti...I tend to define “apostles” by function, not by title; IMHO, many of those who claim the title do not qualify, and they obfuscate our dialog. <BR/><BR/>Functionally, I see “apostles” as foundation-builders, fathers. By contrast, I see pastors as shepherds, care-givers, exhorters. Think generals in the army vs. medics and drill sergeants. I like how Peter Wagner addresses the subject <A HREF="http://www.apostlesnet.net/index.asp?action=introduction" REL="nofollow">here</A> and <A HREF="http://www.apostlesnet.net/images/What_Is_an_Apostle.pdf" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>Some people who appear to fill this would include John Wimber, Bill Valley, John Kelly, Heidi Baker (or does the inclusion of a woman on this list open another jar of worms?), John Eckhardt, Bill Johnson. These people all have limited spheres of influence, and most of them don’t include you and me; there is only one apostle to the <I>whole</I> church, and that’s Jesus the “apostle and high priest of our faith.” (Hmmm. Since he is still living, and is clearly an apostle, I guess he’d be an argument for apostles still being alive today, perhaps?)<BR/><BR/>These men and women are (or in Wimber's case, “were”) doing a great job of fathering, establishing, and their work is accompanied by signs and wonders.<BR/><BR/>Now if you want to call that something else, feel free. I call it an apostle, and I think there’s enough evidence to support it biblically, though I’ll respect other viewpoints. My point in this post is not to argue whether apostles do or do not exist today. My point is to say, quit relying on apostles, or pastors, to do the work of the ministry. Until we all are perfected in maturity, the job of those five is to equip us. <B><I>Our</I></B> job is to do the work of ministry. I think we've been relying on the five-fold leaders - apostles and pastors and the rest - far too much.<BR/><BR/>I hope that brings some clarity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2899018576420083198.post-22350781008536448842007-05-30T17:15:00.000-07:002007-05-30T17:15:00.000-07:00Alright! I wasn't sure, David, if that was your po...Alright! I wasn't sure, David, if that was your post or not. Now, I know and (as you know) knowing is half the battle!<BR/><BR/>I'm a weak cessationist - I don't think God has limited himself in such a way as NOT to give spectacular gifts, as he did in the days of the apostles. He has limited himself in certain ways (not flooding the earth, for instance), but this isn't one of 'em.<BR/><BR/>Rom 16:7 is of interest. Those who are outstanding among the apostles can certainly be among them with about being them. Even if those mentioned were apostles, it's no counter evidence to my argument above - they also must've fit the qualifications.<BR/><BR/>As to Judas's office as distinct from the apostolic office which Judas himself filled - I'll have to think about that for a while.<BR/><BR/>As to Paul - he's special because he was "born out of due time." He's apostleship was after the fact and not normal.<BR/><BR/>What apostles do you think are running around in our day? That's an honest question and I'm quite intersted in your answer.<BR/><BR/>See you in the morning over some coffee!<BR/><BR/>-TimTim Prussichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04661398564398242101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2899018576420083198.post-11996081067585932592007-05-30T16:21:00.000-07:002007-05-30T16:21:00.000-07:00Thanks for the good insight, Tim! And thanks for k...Thanks for the good insight, Tim! And thanks for keeping me on my toes! <BR/><BR/>Yours is a classic argument of cessational theology. In <I>my</I> history, that argument was used to explain why my church leaders couldn't heal the sick or cast out demons (see 2 Corinthians 12:12). That was just <I>my</I> history, but your comments remind me of those (bad) old days.<BR/><BR/>Your list from Acts 1 is a good list, but it never claims to be the qualifications to be an apostle. Rather, it's the qualifications to take Judas's office. Romans 16:7 lists other apostles who clearly weren't part of the original twelve. Heck, Paul himself - the author of half of the books in the NT didn't qualify according to Acts 1, in that he had't "accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us". <BR/><BR/>Certainly there are more apostles than those of the first century. And certainly the foundational work of apostles and prophets is still needed, particularly in regard to unreached people groups, for example. <BR/><BR/>Ultimately, this whole subject works in my mind as being about my expectations: am I willing to hold myself (and God) to the expectation of first-century demonstrations of power in healing, signs and wonders? Or am I going to create a theology that justifies my ineffectivenes? <BR/><BR/>Ultimately, our passage in discussion (Ephesians 4) clearly describes when the apostles and prophets are to be done (which is, incidentally, the <I>same</I> ending date for pastors and teachers): "...till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." We've come a long way in the past two millenia, but we ain't there yet!<BR/><BR/>Thanks for reading. Thanks for thinking. Thanks for writing.<BR/><BR/>DavidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2899018576420083198.post-65112028625721507122007-05-30T13:54:00.000-07:002007-05-30T13:54:00.000-07:00Good encouragemnt in this post. Thanks. We should ...Good encouragemnt in this post. Thanks. We should all wake up wondering what work of ministry we have to do that day.<BR/><BR/>I'm interested to quibble over the temporary nature of some of the offices in Eph 4. <BR/><BR/>You're quite right that God gave these offices until we grow up, but that doesn't mean that they function the same from beginning to end of that process. Nor does it mean that they all function the whole time.<BR/><BR/>With respect to the apostolic office, Acts 1 seems to give the requirements to fill it. Those requirements preclude anyone who wasn't around Jesus from his baptism and throughout his ministry (vv. 21-22). Apostles personally witnessed the minsitry of Christ; Tim (b. 1977) did not personally witness that ministry; therefore, Tim cannot be an apostle.<BR/><BR/>This ties in closely with the stated architectural/ecclesiastical purpose of the NT apostolic and prophetic ministries - that is, to build the foundation of the building that is the church. Eph 2:20 clearly states that the church is build on a specific foundation with a specific corner stone. The nature of a foundation is such that it doesn't continue up to the 5th floor. Similarly, the NT offices of apostles and prophets served that foundational purpose, but now that we're 20 centuries (stories?) removed, they're not still active in the same way. <BR/><BR/>The ministry of pastors and teachers, however, is to lead and teach the apostolic doctrine and practice. The the apostolic ministry continues by way of the pastors and teachers in Christ's church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com